Mav Money Talk

Daniel Hiebert: Greetings and welcome to another exciting episode of mad money talk a podcast

Daniel Hiebert: by college students for college students. We have an exciting guest today Mark Bryce, who is a partner and senior financial planner at a just, awesome, firm, mindful asset planning.

Daniel Hiebert: So thanks Mark for joining us. I'm gonna turn it over to Charlie, and he's gonna take it away.

Charlie Frazzini: Awesome. Thank you, Dan. So yeah, I'm Charlie Frazini. I'm a senior financial planning student at Minnesota State Mankato. And today we're gonna be talking with Mark Brice, lead financial planner at mindful asset planning.

Charlie Frazzini: We're gonna talk about how you can manage a pack schedule, find jobs and internships, and when you're in those jobs and internships some best practices

Charlie Frazzini: and manage your expenses, so I'll turn it over to Mark. Now, why don't you tell us about yourself a little bit, and how you decided to get into financial planning as a career?

Mark Brice: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today.

Mark Brice: I had a a bit of a a left turn in my mid twenties. That led me to financial planning. I actually went to

Mark Brice: to school. I grew up in the Twin cities and went to to an engineering program at the University of Minnesota. and got a degree in structural engineering, and that was kind of the first

Mark Brice: steps into the working world for me.

Mark Brice: and you know it. It had to do with math and numbers, and of course, financial planning has to do with math and numbers. But

Mark Brice: II quickly learned that the

Mark Brice: the the I would call it the function of a of a civil engineer is

Mark Brice: really to make sure things are safe which results in it. In it kind of feeling like being a regulator and saying, Oh, no, you can't do that. You you need to build it this other way. And of course, then it's gonna cost more, and then it's gonna take longer. And

Mark Brice: clients didn't like to hear that right. But you know, had to be safe. So there's no other way. And so it it felt like I was sitting kind of at the other side of the table.

Mark Brice: from the from the clients that I work for, and and that's what sort of rubbed me the wrong way, you know. I think

Mark Brice: when I grew up

Mark Brice: my parents worked in helping professions, and and my dad in particular had a role with the State of Minnesota, where he was really focused on

Mark Brice: creating

Mark Brice: creating outcomes where all stakeholders had success, and and and so I ended up hiring a career coach.

Mark Brice: I paid for it myself. which at the time was quite a bit of money. And I did some sessions with a career coach. And and I

Mark Brice: realize that I needed to find a role where

Mark Brice: I could really sit down with people on the same side of the table. And I always had an interest in personal finance. And so that's kind of what led me down

Mark Brice: down the path into financial planning.

Mark Brice: maybe a a wrong start first. But I have no regrets with that engineering degree. I learned a lot about

Mark Brice: the world and about myself in in doing that. And you can always pivot.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, that's cool to hear about the unique switch into financial planning. So

Charlie Frazzini: when you switched from engineering to financial planning, were there any kind of challenges or hurdles that you had face when you were making the switch.

Mark Brice: Well, anytime there's a transition there's always there's always the positive aspects of it which you're aiming for right

Mark Brice: but as you as you mentioned, there's always the challenges that that come up. And so I was. I was married at the time, and one of the things that

Mark Brice: that we had decided was that we were gonna live off a one paycheck.

Mark Brice: and so we we saved out of both paychecks, and

Mark Brice: when the time came where I,

Mark Brice: you know, basically quit my job and went back to school to get my Cfp

Mark Brice: certified financial planner designation.

Mark Brice: We were able to just live off of my wife's paycheck, and so that could have become a a big hurdle. It wasn't great. I mean, we had to make make decisions. We had to, you know, do a few less things because of that. But

Mark Brice: but that was one obstacle. You know, not to mention having to do

Mark Brice: Cfp classes on evenings and weekends and and that sort of thing. But I think the biggest challenge was

Mark Brice: building the connections that I needed to have in order to

Mark Brice: get my foot in the door. In this industry I didn't know anybody, and so

Mark Brice: II can't recall exactly my pathway to it. But I ended up ended up joining the Financial Planning Association, the Minnesota chapter at the time. I think there are 8 or 900 members, and they had these monthly meetings, and you could go to it, and

Mark Brice: I joined as as a student, which was low cost. You always want to look for the student discounts for everything, of course.

Mark Brice: And and it was it was tough to walk into that room, knowing very, very little about the industry, and and and just be comfortable with myself in in that space.

Mark Brice: I knew the engineering world, but I did not know the financial planning world. And so

Mark Brice: so I think from a

Mark Brice: just logistical challenge. It was tough to build those connections. And then

Mark Brice: I had to kinda

Mark Brice: I don't know.

Mark Brice: Be humble and and just go in with an open mind and learn and ask lots of questions. And II did get really good advice early on from somebody that I just happened to randomly meet at at one of those meetings at one of those educational meetings who said, You know, anytime you meet with somebody, you should always ask for 2 more names and introductions.

Mark Brice: and then go have coffee with those to to people and ask for 2 more names, and then, you know, meet, meet one of them for lunch and schedule an informational interview with the other one. And and you know, that's how I built kind of my network of contacts. And I just put it in the spreadsheet tonight. A whole bunch of folks, and I

Mark Brice: took notes and and just asked a whole lot of questions, and until I found

Mark Brice: a a enough connections and and companies who were looking to grow

Mark Brice: and and that's how I how I got my first job in the in the industry

Charlie Frazzini: awesome. Thank you for sharing that and that kind of goes into the next question. which is tips for students that are looking to get an internship. And I know you kind of

Charlie Frazzini: mentioned going to the Fpa. And networking events like that. So do you have any.

Charlie Frazzini: maybe ideas or tips for a student that's looking to get an internship or a full-time job. Maybe some kind of

Charlie Frazzini: networking events or resources like Linkedin that they could look for.

Mark Brice: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, fast forward now. Ii work for a

Mark Brice: financial planning firm. In the South Metro, the Twin Cities, and we've got many 100 clients, and we've got a team of of folks and we hire interns annually, and and very often we're we're hiring for full time positions as well.

Mark Brice: And so

Mark Brice: III can speak to that question from my perspective now, sitting on kind of the hiring side of the table.

Mark Brice: And you know the first thing that that we're always looking for is, you know, what's your story?

Mark Brice: Wh, what? Where does your passion lie? How do you describe your purpose and your values. And every company has a culture, and every company has a passion and a purpose, and values and

Mark Brice: smart

Mark Brice: leaders are going to look for people who just naturally fit that

Mark Brice: When when we think of of what

Mark Brice: what our culture is and the type of folks that we're looking for What we're really looking for is somebody who

Mark Brice: is humble. somebody who

Mark Brice: doesn't know it all, and they know they don't know at all, and they

Mark Brice: are eager to learn, so they're hungry. They're humble and hungry, eager to learn, eager to grow eager to try new things ready to roll up their sleeves and do complicated things, and do mundane things, and and you know E, everybody knows how to make the coffee at our office, and you know the first person there.

Mark Brice: if if there's a dustiness, snow goes and brooms off the front steps.

Mark Brice: So, being humble and hungry, and then you know the obvious thing

Mark Brice: that that every employer is looking for is, you know, you gotta be smart, you know. So it's the grades and and those sorts of things, but

Mark Brice: I think

Mark Brice: that's kind of table stakes, you know. If if if you're not getting the grades, if you're not passing the classes and and don't have have that

Mark Brice: Then then it's kind of a stop in terms of of that hiring process from our perspective.

Mark Brice: But what really is kind of the ace, the ace up your sleeve, if you're looking for a job is if you can speak to

Mark Brice: your

Mark Brice: your your values, you know why you care about helping people, or or, or, better yet, demonstrate through

Mark Brice: through who you are and and and the the things that you do outside of the classroom. You know that that eagerness, that that hunger to to learn and to grow that humility, that ability to just naturally learn and grow every day.

Mark Brice: Perhaps through questions that that one might ask. So that's kind of what we're looking for from a

Mark Brice: cultural perspective, more specific things that I that I think we notice when we're looking at resumes when we're having conversations with folks is really initiative. The initiative to go to

Mark Brice: the

Mark Brice: Industry Association events. The initiative to you know, find that nonprofit organization that

Mark Brice: teaches you how to do tax returns for low income folks or teaches you how to counsel counsel people who don't have banking accounts into and and get, you know

Mark Brice: fee free, you know, checking and savings accounts.

Mark Brice: taking some initiative to. I read the industry.

Mark Brice: you know, periodicals, and

Mark Brice: in in our industry. Michael Kits is kind of the the all star out there, and so you know, just trying to learn as much as you can and demonstrate that you're learning as much as you can about the industry through both the the information that you're taking in and the activities that you're that you're getting involved in

Mark Brice: And the more you know about the industry, the more you can relate.

Mark Brice: What I would say are seemingly unrelatable things to

Mark Brice: real practical skills.

Mark Brice: I'll just give an example here, you know, we we talked with someone who who worked at chipot way, and they

Mark Brice: made burritos, and I'm sure they learned about cooking and customer service and things like that. And then we talked to somebody who

Mark Brice: as a college student, coached a high school ultimate Frisbee team.

Mark Brice: and they talked about navigating conversations with parents who thought their kids should get more playtime or thought somebody shouldn't or were upset about something. And you know, that's a whole different skill set of leadership. And you can't please any. Can't please everybody when when you're in a leadership position, and it's tough, and they're straight off. And so, you know, we look at those

Mark Brice: 2 types of things on a resume. And the latter is is much more indicative of somebody who?

Mark Brice: it has really grown a lot through through the the, you know, part time job choices that they that they took versus the former.

Daniel Hiebert: Yeah, that if I can just jump in, that was awesome explanation. Thank you for sharing that.

Daniel Hiebert: And I agree with you 100%. You know when I

Daniel Hiebert: read through my students resumes, and I've got a couple that I have to read through this week

Daniel Hiebert: kinda to your point. II think the term that I've learned is called proof points.

Daniel Hiebert: So, looking at a resume. And instead of saying.

Daniel Hiebert: You know, even if you had a job at like chipotle, where you know you could describe your duties in your resume, as you know, met clients, orders successfully, or something along those lines.

Daniel Hiebert: How did you.

Daniel Hiebert: How did you know you were doing a good job? What does it mean to be successful? Were you in the top 10% for efficiency or tips or things along those lines.

Daniel Hiebert: These are more proof points. And then just listing out what your duties were. I don't know if you agree with that or not. But

Charlie Frazzini: I think he could. I had a thought on that, too.

Charlie Frazzini: just because your

Charlie Frazzini: jobs that you might have had in the past don't necessarily exactly translate to the position you're applying for. You should for sure talk up what you've done in the past. If it includes leadership skills or teamwork skills. Those are both very important and as well as communication skills. If you had a

Charlie Frazzini: job where it was very important to communic to communicate with

Charlie Frazzini: a a team, or you know anybody else outside of that, you should really talk that up in your interview, because, like Mark said, those are things that are being looked for

Charlie Frazzini: in the interview process. So just because you don't have direct work experience with the job you're applying for doesn't mean that you can't talk up

Charlie Frazzini: past experiences you've had, because they they can for sure translate.

Mark Brice: Yeah, absolutely having a couple of examples of of

Mark Brice: what you learned

Mark Brice: from each one of those experiences, and you know the examples could be failures, too, where they can be mistakes.

Mark Brice: you know that that's part of the humility, I think, and you know mistakes are really our friend. If we make a mistake, that means we learn something. If we did it right.

Mark Brice: We haven't. We haven't grown at all from that. And so I think that that can be something that can kind of set you aside a little bit if you talk about, you know, screwing something up and then learning from it and becoming better.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah,

Charlie Frazzini: I wanna get your thoughts on this something that I

Charlie Frazzini: have done in the past is scheduling kind of informational interviews, or just kind of, you know. Sit down, chat for coffee with

Charlie Frazzini: industry, professionals, or people that are hiring, and I wasn't even looking for

Charlie Frazzini: employment. Necessarily, I was just looking for

Charlie Frazzini: somebody to learn from and ask questions, too. So

Charlie Frazzini: you know, what are your thoughts on

Charlie Frazzini: just scheduling a you know, a casual 30 min conversation with

Charlie Frazzini: an industry professional to learn rather than just only seeking employment.

Mark Brice: I think that's great. I mean that that's

Mark Brice: quite honestly the exact methodology that I use to to get my foot in the door in this industry, which which, by the way was a part time job, and and

Mark Brice: and you know it wasn't it was moving in the right direction. It wasn't. It wasn't the ultimate objective. And

Mark Brice: and I think that's important, too, is that you know you don't necessarily

Mark Brice: have to get to where you want to ultimately get to right away.

Mark Brice: I think that you can learn from all sorts of experiences. And so having an open mind about about different possibilities. But

Mark Brice: yeah, the informational interviews. I would say the the biggest thing from my perspective.

Mark Brice: in in doing those kind of on this side on the you know, working in the business side. Is that

Mark Brice: It's it's really helpful to know wh what it is you're what it is you're looking for and what you want to learn about ahead of time, if possible. And so that could be just

Mark Brice: a a

Mark Brice: a couple of questions. I mean you. You've asked me some great questions today. And so it could be some of the questions about you know, what should I be?

Mark Brice: You know, positioning myself in terms of activities and clubs. And you know, what should I be doing in order to, you know.

Mark Brice: get that first interview, or it can be interview tips, or it could be. You know. What? What do you?

Mark Brice: What do you think a great first position would would be in this industry? You know what type of firm. What type of company? But just trying to prime the person that you're gonna do an informational interview with

Mark Brice: with what you're trying to get out of it.

Mark Brice: Because I think if I know what you're trying to get out of it, then I know you really care about it. You know, it's not just something you're doing for the heck of it. You. You really are interested in something.

Mark Brice: and if you don't know what to ask for

Mark Brice: you can always just say, Hey.

Mark Brice: I don't even know what I should be asking. What do you think is really, you know what what I wanna talk about is what you think is really important for me to know about starting a career in this industry.

Mark Brice: It can be open-ended, too.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah,

Charlie Frazzini: and kind of pivoting. So you know, taking those tips, applying it to your interview or job search once you've maybe gotten that internship that you were looking for, or maybe a full time job. What do you think is something that employers are looking for of their interns or full-time employees? Maybe

Charlie Frazzini: you know skills, questions that they asked. W. What are the things that an employer is going to be looking for?

Mark Brice: So I think one of the most important things about

about starting an internship or or your first full time job is

Mark Brice: is. And I mentioned this earlier, but find out what the

Mark Brice: what the employers wanting out of it, you know, if you're gonna get, if you're gonna start an internship. you should ask, why do you have an internship? Program

Mark Brice: what what is the company wanting from this? What? What's important to you? As you know, a as a company to have an internship program?

Mark Brice: you know, initially. expectations as an intern are probably fairly low, so find out what they are.

Mark Brice: and meet and then exceed them.

Mark Brice: You know the greatest way to move your career forward is to get noticed, and that

Mark Brice: greatest way to get noticed is to

Mark Brice: exceed what's expected of you.

Mark Brice: If if you exceed what's expected of you. You'll be given more challenging work, more responsibility. And you'll no longer be treated like that intern, or like that new hire, you'll quickly kinda move on beyond that and but it starts with asking the question, why do you have an internship program, or why do you hire new graduates, you know, and really trying to to peel back the layers of the onion, so to speak, on.

Mark Brice: on wh. What it is the employer is looking for out of having you be part of the team.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, those are some great thoughts. one question that I've asked interviewers before. and it's

Charlie Frazzini: you know it's a it's a good question, I think, because it shows your long term interest in the company you're working for. And that's

Charlie Frazzini: if you were to hire me. How would you know that I'm the right fit for the company one year ahead of time?

Charlie Frazzini: So

Charlie Frazzini: yeah, would you be able to give some

Charlie Frazzini: like an answer to that, you know, like what you're looking for after a year of employment to know, this guy's the red fit, or this girls are as red fit.

Mark Brice: That's a that's a good question. II think one element of it is have ha! Has that person been able to

Mark Brice: meet the expectations of the job. And have they added value to the organization.

Mark Brice: So meeting the expectations, that's the that's what. Maybe from an employer, perspective is unknown. Right? We, if we know what the expectations are great, but

Mark Brice: but it's really

Mark Brice: moving beyond that and and

Mark Brice: adding value to the organization. And that could be turning an aspect of of the job into something that's more of a process or a system.

Mark Brice: That's simpler, or that's faster, or that's less prone to error. Or perhaps it's something that somebody with even less

Mark Brice: knowledge and skill can do.

Mark Brice: You know, I think

Mark Brice: when

Mark Brice: when when we when we look at development of people at any level

Mark Brice: in the organization.

Mark Brice: The the development trajectory is really the the goal of it is really to

Mark Brice: work yourself out of a job

Mark Brice: which sounds bizarre. But if you can. If you can turn what was more complicated into something simple.

Mark Brice: and teach somebody else how to do it. Teach the next new person how to do it, and they can do it twice as fast as you originally could, because you made it better and easier.

Mark Brice: Then you just naturally sort of move up. And so that can be an initial.

Mark Brice: kinda you know, one year in going back to the root of your question. You know. Where?

Mark Brice: Where were these tasks? At the beginning

Mark Brice: of that internship? And where were they at the end or the end of the first year? And and has there been value added to the organization beyond just accomplishing the work?

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, that's a great answer, and

Charlie Frazzini: you know I think

Charlie Frazzini: you can kind of see it

Charlie Frazzini: with without even needing feedback from an individual that you're working with. You can just see

Charlie Frazzini: as an intern or employee when you provide good service, or you know, good work to the team that you're working with.

Charlie Frazzini: You know, things just naturally kind of work out, you know. The financial plan, for instance.

Charlie Frazzini: gets sent off to the advisor that use it. Everybody's happy.

Charlie Frazzini: You know, and when you effectively communicate where you are in that process.

Charlie Frazzini: That's another huge tip.

Charlie Frazzini: good communication leads to success. You can just kind of naturally see the end result without needing confirmation from anybody else.

Mark Brice: Yeah. And if you if you do what's expected of you.

Mark Brice: and then a little bit more. it gets noticed.

Charlie Frazzini: it really does.

Mark Brice: and and

Mark Brice: when you do a little bit more

Mark Brice: you

Mark Brice: you develop a reputation for that. And when you develop a reputation for being helpful within a an organization or a team.

Mark Brice: Then everyone wants you on their team. They want you to help with their project. They want you to help with their client. And so

Mark Brice: I you know, II think

Mark Brice: as much as we. We try to try to focus on what we can learn and and how we can be better

Mark Brice: which is sort of looking at the world around us, and and and then trying to pull things in to improve ourselves thinking, we flip that around. And you focus a little bit more on what you can do for others, and just consistently.

Mark Brice: you know, add, add value, and help out people around you. Then that's what progresses your

Mark Brice: internship into a full time job or your, you know, entry, level position and into a longer term career doors will open that you can't possibly foresee. If you

Mark Brice: if you

Mark Brice: focus on what you could do for others and not what they're gonna do for you and build that reputation of just being a helpful galler guy.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, very good point. And if you kind of expand that to a a firm financial planning, firm, wide

Charlie Frazzini: scale. I've learned this

Charlie Frazzini: in my experience. Is that the best way to generate new clients and new businesses just by doing good work for your existing clients and not.

Charlie Frazzini: you know. II know people think a lot of financial planning is just cold. Call sales pushing a product or something. But really the best way

Charlie Frazzini: for you to generate new business and new relationships is just by.

Charlie Frazzini: like you said, taking that extra step and going above and beyond for your clients that you already have that way. You know the clients you have will be happy.

Charlie Frazzini: and they'll be happy to refer your services to family friends or anybody else.

Mark Brice: Yeah, I think it. It comes down to trust in the financial planning world.

Mark Brice: If clients

Mark Brice: trust you as an advisor or you as a advisory firm.

Mark Brice: Then then they stick with you, and they believe in you, and they they listen and follow through on advice that you give

Mark Brice: And and I think

Mark Brice: II think trust is something that that we all probably ought to think a little bit more about.

Mark Brice: And you know what are the what are the traits of being trustworthy, you know. You need to be authentic and real, right not not fake. And and pretending you need to be consistent. You need to follow through.

Mark Brice: You need to,

Mark Brice: be kind and compassionate, but truthful also right. And so sometimes that's

Mark Brice: needing to be candid, right? We we don't wanna sugar coat things that's necessarily. But we can say things in a kind, compassionate way, even if they're challenging to say

Mark Brice: and and you know, II think

Mark Brice: from both a client perspective and a manager perspective

Mark Brice: you know a component of of

Mark Brice: trustworthiness is if you're available. So clients want to know that I'm available when they call.

Mark Brice: They want me to be available when they email. They want me to respond in a in a quick manner. It's the same thing working on a team. It's the same thing being an intern, or.

Mark Brice: or, you know, working on a team in a full time way. You got to be available

Mark Brice: and

Mark Brice: and then you gotta think outwardly, you know. How can I? How can I help you? Not not how can I better myself through through this interaction?

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, all good points. Dan, do you have any thoughts on what we've been talking about? Or do you have any separate questions that you want to ask?

Daniel Hiebert: No, I agree. 100%, I think. Trust, as you guys have mentioned and talked about is hugely important. And you guys

Daniel Hiebert: gave some great

Daniel Hiebert: attributes to building trust. I just add another.

Daniel Hiebert: I'd say. And and Mark is. And both you guys have mentioned this

Daniel Hiebert: is being humble, being vulnerable, hey? Nobody's perfect. If you make a mistake.

Daniel Hiebert: just take ownership of it. Apologize if you've harmed anyone or cause anyone confusion and

Daniel Hiebert: move forward. But you have to have that humility, I think, in order to be a good teammate

Daniel Hiebert: and and build trust.

Mark Brice: Yeah, absolutely. And

Mark Brice: component of humility, II think, is.

Mark Brice: you know, anytime you have an interaction with somebody else. It doesn't matter who they are.

Mark Brice: you know I don't. It doesn't matter if it's a

Mark Brice: an advisor in this industry, or somebody who's a speaker in this industry, or you know my, my

Mark Brice: 14 year old niece.

Mark Brice: If if I have that conversation with that person with the assumption that I'm gonna learn something

Mark Brice: that's humility.

Daniel Hiebert: Umhm

Daniel Hiebert: 100%. Yep, absolutely. And

Daniel Hiebert: I'm working on some mentorship things for the Fpa. Some mentorship training and kind of along those lines. I think mentors can learn from their mentees just as well as the Mentees can learn from their mentors.

Mark Brice: And they call it reciprocal mentorship.

Daniel Hiebert: So yeah, that's absolutely spot on

Daniel Hiebert: let's change directions if we could. Mark and Charlie I'm fascinated to find out a little bit more

Daniel Hiebert: again, totally switching gears here, but kind of coming back to our month discussion. You guys have really do a nice job on financial psychology

Daniel Hiebert: and your firm. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but really kind of hangs their hat on

Daniel Hiebert: bringing more financial psychological aspects, behavioral aspects into the client engagement. Could you? Could you talk about that a little bit more. And also, how could how could students be able to learn a little bit about some of the

Daniel Hiebert: things that you bring to the client engagement as far as financial psychology.

Mark Brice: Yeah, absolutely. II So I work for a firm that was founded 1988. And

Mark Brice: the the the 2 2 people who founded it. We're really in the education space initially, and

Mark Brice: their thesis at the time in the late eighties was that if if we could just educate folks about personal finance, then they'd make better decisions right?

Mark Brice: And

Mark Brice: that was the lens they took when they built the company, and and, you know, started working with clients. And they quickly quickly realized that

Mark Brice: gosh, people aren't

Mark Brice: making different decisions just because they're educated. Why is that.

Mark Brice: And

Mark Brice: and and that's what led led our company down the path of learning about about psychology, and about why why folks make the decisions that they do.

Mark Brice: and you know, fast forward a long ways. we. We take an approach where

Mark Brice: where we help

Mark Brice: help clients learn about themselves and about

Mark Brice: what motivates them when making money related decisions, maybe things that they're that they're seeking like peace and harmony with their partner. Or growth. Right? Maybe very growth orientated

Mark Brice: or things that they're trying to avoid.

Mark Brice: trying to avoid instability, trying to avoid losing it all. Trying to avoid being fearful when they, you know.

Mark Brice: pull up their app on their phone and see what what happened in the in the market.

Mark Brice: and and initially

Mark Brice: in the in the very beginning stages when we W. When we meet with folks for the for the first time. Really, you know, so they're not a client. They're just interested in financial planning. We really explore. And we use some tools that we've developed for this but it's really just conversation. And I think in particular, when

Mark Brice: when when spouses or partners experience this and listen to the conversation we have with the other one, because we kinda do one, you know, take turns, one spouse first, then the next.

Mark Brice: They learn so much about each other, and

Mark Brice: and and

Mark Brice: why they maybe have those.

Mark Brice: Those

Mark Brice: characteristics that they have

Mark Brice: when when they when they deal with money, and so at the end of the day, what I tell everybody. Every single client of ours is that you know we we are in the business of giving advice and helping guide you on decision making. You are in the business of making decisions. And so we don't make decisions for anybody.

Mark Brice: We can provide advice, and clients can take that advice, or they can decide something else, and that's perfectly fine the the whole objective that we have, though, is is to help clients make informed decisions.

Mark Brice: and the informed component is twofold. One is

Mark Brice: making sure that they know the numbers around all these decisions. Okay, so buying a car versus leasing a car right? Maybe there's 3 scenarios you buy with cash. You take a loan, or you lease. Okay? 3 possibilities. Right?

Mark Brice: There's math around each of those we need to be able to analytically provide the the the math around that.

Mark Brice: So so a client can can make a financially informed decision.

Mark Brice: But there's also personal preferences. And there's motivations. And there's biases on those, you know. You might have grown up in a household where your family never had a loan for anything but the mortgage. You save money and you pay cash for everything.

Mark Brice: Okay, that's a rule of thumb that you learn from Mom and Dad growing up. Is it right? Is it wrong. I don't know but it's part of who you are, and we're not gonna change it. But let's acknowledge that. Let's acknowledge that in this decision making process because you're

Mark Brice: your partner may have grew up in a family where

Mark Brice: Dad worked in sales, and every every 3 years he got a new.

Mark Brice: a new car, and they leased because he was in sales, and he was driving around. And you needed to have a nice new automobile to do that right. And so.

Mark Brice: you know, your your spouse might have grown up in a completely different environment, and so again, neither right or wrong. But we should. We should acknowledge, maybe some of those the origins of of where where our

Mark Brice: where our biases come from and and

Mark Brice: and also decide to what extent that is applicable to today's decision.

Mark Brice: So III think when you come come at financial planning through the lens of just helping guide clients make better decisions. You have to incorporate both the the financial analytical

Mark Brice: you know the math as well as

Mark Brice: A a as well as what one's personal preferences might be.

Daniel Hiebert: Yeah. And I think you bring up an excellent point. And

Daniel Hiebert: in that, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the importance, just understanding how you grew up with money. II have my students go through that as an exercise in one of the classes, but

Daniel Hiebert: that has to be just a kind of a central point, as you're pointing out,

Daniel Hiebert: future behavior, just understanding what your your past behavior is, I'll give you a good example from my own also my! I grew up with money in probably not the right way. My parents were loving parents gave a nice home, but they just spent money.

Daniel Hiebert: They look way beyond their needs. I remember collection calls. I remember people coming to the house demanding money, and they just

Daniel Hiebert: didn't do a good job with management.

Daniel Hiebert: and so we as siblings. I have 3 brothers and sisters once passed away, but

Daniel Hiebert: we're legendary now for our frugality.

Daniel Hiebert: We will, you know.

Daniel Hiebert: I stories of one of them that just would shock you as how frugal

Daniel Hiebert: and they're they're all very wealthy. 7 figure wealth.

Daniel Hiebert: My wife. On the other hand, she grew up very. with very good money management lessons, but along the same lines as being

Daniel Hiebert: thrifty with your money. Bring frugal with your money, living within your means. And so we've kind of just kind of came together.

Daniel Hiebert: And I think maybe you see that from a couples I'd like to hear your comments on that, and how that could fit together.

Mark Brice: well related to

Mark Brice: to the you know the family that you grew up in, Dan, II would say most commonly the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, or it rolls a long ways away. In that you you either end up very like

Mark Brice: your parents, or one of your parents, or very unlike them.

Mark Brice: and

Mark Brice: and and and you are who you are and your wife is who she is.

Mark Brice: and together.

Mark Brice: you you, you just broadly speaking, couples end up in one of a couple of different scenarios. You're either both very much alike.

Mark Brice: and you are frugal. You're both both very much alike, and you spend, or you're to a degree opposite to one another.

Mark Brice: and from from a financial planning perspective. the the first 2 scenarios.

Mark Brice: Well, we we meet a lot of folks who are frugal, right? They they want financial advice because they value growth.

Mark Brice: and they like to see account balances grow right. And so we have a lot of clients.

Mark Brice: and this industry has a lot of clients who are probably similar to you and your wife.

Mark Brice: the the second scenario you know you you spend, she spends.

Mark Brice: We don't get phone calls from from you. If that's the case, right? I mean, you're gonna you're gonna be as far away from a financial advisor as possible, cause you don't want to get told to do something that you don't wanna do

Mark Brice: the the third scenario, where you're very different, though that's what causes conflict.

Mark Brice: and that's very common. And

Mark Brice: and you know, just last week I had had a meeting with clients that I've worked with

Mark Brice: since 2,015, and they've never displayed any degree of conflict whatsoever about

Mark Brice: spending and saving decisions. And all of a sudden they are. And it turns out that they have just very different

Mark Brice: styles around how they manage their their cash flow, and

Mark Brice: neither is right or wrong. You know it's it's okay. It's who we are. And II think the best way to guide people is to help them

Mark Brice: understand why they are the way they are, and more importantly, why their partners, the way their partner is, and and then and then we can figure out, okay, if there's a Venn diagram here, where's the common? Where's the common ground in terms of our joint objectives? And

Mark Brice: where can we agree to disagree and and operate a little bit differently? And and that can manifest itself in you know, for example, a cash flow management structure where?

Mark Brice: you know, perhaps.

Mark Brice: Perhaps both spouses. Paychecks go into a joint account, and then there's a certain amount each month that gets funneled over to individual checking accounts, and

Mark Brice: they can each spend it on whatever they want.

Mark Brice: but they can't ask or or they they can't. Judge what they're

Mark Brice: spouse is doing on that, you know, 100 bucks a month, or whatever it is that goes into that individual account. So this is a version where, you know. Okay, we're we're a team. We're taking care of things together, but we also need some autonomy.

Mark Brice: some healthy autonomy. So

Mark Brice: you know, and that's a good, a good construct for some folks, but it doesn't work for others.

Mark Brice: And and so the more you can learn about where the

Mark Brice: where the desires and preferences come from, and the and the more you can communicate that with

Mark Brice: with one another

Mark Brice: in a financial planning relationship the more likely. Iii think households are set up for success.

Mark Brice: in in.

Mark Brice: you know, figuring out their best way to to

Mark Brice: manage their unique circumstances around money

Daniel Hiebert: makes total sense. Would you suggest

Daniel Hiebert: that students kind of go through that exercise of just kind of thinking back to what are your early money memories? How did you grow with money

Daniel Hiebert: and kind of to your point? Maybe find what they would feel would be successful attributes to adopt.

Daniel Hiebert: or maybe some situations that they want to avoid, just so that

Daniel Hiebert: they can help them make better financial decisions

Mark Brice: in the future. Do you think that's a a good exercise for students. I'm kind of thinking it's going to be. Yes, but maybe

Mark Brice: I'll give you this the short version of it. But we we do a Gina Graham exercise with folks. So this is where you start with drawing the family tree.

Mark Brice: and so

Mark Brice: well, Charlie will use you as an example here. So you know, we got Charlie in the middle of the diagram, and Charlie's got parents.

Mark Brice: and parents may or may not be who raise Charlie, but so there might be other folks in there, and then there's a grandparent level, and then there's sibling level.

Mark Brice: Maybe there's older siblings, and maybe those older siblings have have kids. So you know, there, there could be a niece, nephew level. But we draw out the family tree. Basically.

Mark Brice: Doesn't matter how you do it. You can use different different notations, etc., etc. But we draw that out. And then

Mark Brice: and then we start

Mark Brice: asking questions of Charlie like what was

Mark Brice: dad-like

Mark Brice: when you when you were growing up? You know. What did he do for work? And we learn about that? And

Mark Brice: you know, how would you describe how Dad handled this money? Same thing about Mom, you know. And did mom and dad talk about money or not? Who paid the bills. And we, we know we ask all these questions about about kind of what the construct of the family finances were.

Mark Brice: you know, including, were you, you know, were you sort of middle class in your community, or or upper class or dirt? Poor, you know. Where? Where were you? In in the community.

Mark Brice: And and then

Mark Brice: what are the what are the you know? Most prominent? 2, 3, 4, 5.

Mark Brice: Stories or lessons. You felt you learned about money

Mark Brice: when you were growing up. And ultimately, what we try to identify and tease out are maybe 2 or 3 words that that Charlie you might use to describe Mom

Mark Brice: in in how she handled money so Mom could be mom could be prudent, and Mom could be calculating and but Mom could also be caring, you know. Maybe she was generous. And you know, you as kids, you know, wanted or needed something. And you know she'd take you to the Valley fair to go on rides every once in a while, so she could be generous and and prudent and and calculating. And then Dad's got words, too, and then

Mark Brice: and then and then the conversation would would

Mark Brice: sort of migrate into alright. So you know, Mom was was calculating, how how do you feel? You are, you know, Charlie, are you calculating with with your money, or

Mark Brice: or you know, do you identify with that or not? And you know, are you generous? Do you identify with that or not? And then for all those words we'd we'd also follow up with, all right. So you're calculating with money. Do you feel like

Mark Brice: you feel like you're too calculating or not calculating enough, or or just right, you know, is that something you want to dial up or down, or is that something that you're pretty happy with?

Mark Brice: And and that's how we do a Gina Graham and it can take quite quite a bit of time, and you know I think

Mark Brice: you don't have to have somebody do it for you, but I think it's a lot easier if if there's a little bit of a a structure to it. So if you know, if you followed that that structure and asked those questions of a friend.

Mark Brice: and then then had them ask similar questions of you, and kind of sketched it out, and and teased out some of those words and characteristics and things that you identify with and wanna dial up or dial down. II that that's kind of the the root and the core of where we where we start with

Mark Brice: trying to identify some of these. Well, I'll call it money personalities that we all have.

Charlie Frazzini: Yeah, I think

Charlie Frazzini: that even doing it as a student might be even more beneficial, as a kind of laying out the grounds work because those memories are so recent.

Charlie Frazzini: and students are most likely still living with parents, so they can kind of

Charlie Frazzini: see it. And.

Charlie Frazzini: you know, write out that family tree because they're still living it. So I would agree that that's a really good thing that students can do. Maybe it's not

Charlie Frazzini: a family tree. Maybe they could figure out another way.

Charlie Frazzini: Another exercise. But doing that as a student can only benefit you in the future with your your money decisions.

Mark Brice: Yeah, a absolutely. I I think the more the more introspective we can be about, why, the way we are.

Mark Brice: the the the more we can

Mark Brice: make decisions that that are a bit better. You know you don't. You don't have to necessarily

Mark Brice: like a decision that you make a financial decision that you make. If it's if it's contrary to who you are, but you know

Mark Brice: that the dollars and cents make sense on paper. You know. You know, you know that if you

Mark Brice: you know, paid cash for the car, or got a low, low interest loan for the car instead of leasing it. That it's, you know, a financially better decision. If you grew up leasing

Mark Brice: you don't have to like that. You're driving an older vehicle that you paid cash for, or you you took a loan for, and you're gonna drive it for 8 or 10 years instead of 2 or 3. You don't have to like that. But if you can recognize, this is why I don't like it, but I also recognize why

Mark Brice: financially it makes sense for me to do it. And I intentionally made this decision with this financial component in mind. Then

Mark Brice: when you're stressed about it or you don't like it, or you know, you gotta bring it in for service, and it's $800 for new breaks, and whatever else

Mark Brice: you can be. Okay. With that you can feel settled with it. Because you've acknowledged the the emotion that you know, is gonna crop up because you're you're making an intentional decision. That's sort of contrary to

Mark Brice: you know the lessons that you learned or the way that you were, you were brought up.

Daniel Hiebert: It's fascinating.

Daniel Hiebert: Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, we're we're out of time, mark and Charlie.

Daniel Hiebert: Any final thoughts, Charlie, from your side.

Charlie Frazzini: No, I was really

Charlie Frazzini: awesome to have you take the time and interview with us, and maybe just going off the last point.

Charlie Frazzini: you know, going with the smart financial decision that makes sense versus the emotional decision. What feels right generally will

Charlie Frazzini: lead you to the right path, doing what's right versus what feels right

Charlie Frazzini: is gonna lead you to success, even though it might be uncomfortable. It's gonna be a good decision most of the time.

Mark Brice: Absolutely. I'll I'll just leave you with one random piece of financial advice that I that I have given a lot of folks. This is a completely on a on ask for piece of advice. But

Mark Brice: III think it's very relevant for for college students, and that is.

Mark Brice: learn how to cook. You should really learn how to cook, because it is so expensive to eat out. and

Mark Brice: you can eat better and healthier and about 10 times cheaper if you learn how to cook. I stumbled upon that. When I was in college I just happened to have a roommate who had had grew up cooking and had worked in restaurants and knew what he was doing, and and he taught me how to cook. And you know, it wasn't an intentional thing to learn. But.

Mark Brice: by gosh! That has been A wonderful thing to the wonderful skill to have here. So learn how to cook. Maybe if you make your own, Ramen.

Daniel Hiebert: It's funny. Bring that up because Susie Orman, financial Guru set the exact same thing.

Daniel Hiebert: And I, you guys, are just cut from the same cloth, so to speak. You know it kills me every time I walk by the Food Court, and I see students lined up waiting for their latte that I don't know how much are they? 6, 7 bucks. And they could buy a lotte machine

Mark Brice: and pay for itself after about 4 or 5. So, yeah. And you know, I mean, I go out to eat, and every once in a while splurge on those sorts of things. But but on the on the regular. Learn how to cook. I think

Daniel Hiebert: that's great advice. Well, Mark, you were, this was filled with great advice. We really super appreciate your time. This is one of the best episodes. I think we've had.

Daniel Hiebert: So thanks so much for carving out part of your busy day. And, Charlie, thanks for those great questions, too, and stay tuned for the next exciting episode. Coming to you soon. Take care, everyone.